In act one, Miss Hardcastle seems like a fairly independent thinker, and would need a strong man to keep up with her. However, Marlow doesn't present himself as such in his first meeting with her. He practically begs Hastings to stay as a barrier, and he constantly needs Hasting's encouragement about how well he is speaking. But Hardcastle does not mind. She just keeps finishing his sentences for him and thinks, "If I could teach him a little confidence, it would be doing somebody that I know a piece of service. But who is that somebody?--that, faith, is a question I can scarce answer." (22) Do we know who that somebody is? Is it her? She seems set on liking him. She puts up a good arguement for him when her father calls him impudent.
Then the next occurrence between Marlow and Miss Hardcastle made me question the nature of Miss Hardcastle. She wants to see if Marlow is really rude, so she dresses up as a maid. He doesn't treat her in the same manner as he treated her when she was Kate. He hits on her and he says he is a favorite of the ladies. To me, the latter Marlow is even less appealing than the intimidated one. But Kate thinks he's modest based on this second occurrence, and she stilll likes him. What does this say about Hardcastle? Is it just that love is a weakness of hers?
And by the way, can Kate hear Marlow when he is musing about her and says, "As for Miss Hardcastle, she's too grave and sentimental for me." (33)? Is musing just like an aside in that respect? - KLe-c Jan 31, 2008
I 've been thinking the same things about Miss Hardcastle and Marlow too; it doesn't make sense that she is intent on going for him when she has outwardly expressed already that she takes no interest in quiet, modest men. For example, back on page 4 when Mr .Hardcastle is telling Kate about her suitor, she's all for marrying this guy when she finds out that he is "very generous...young and brave...and very handsome," but the moment that Hardcastle says "bashful and reserved," Kate is immediately turned off and exclaims that "the word reserved has undone all the rest of his accomplishments". After Kate and Marlow's first interview, she talks to her stepdad about it: "If he be the sullen thing I take him, he shall never have [my consent to marry him]....And yet there may be many good qualities under that first appearance" (28). I don't really have a response to Kirsten except more questions: Why is she still interested in him? Why is she willing to give him a second chance when she said before that being modest trumps all of his good qualities? The only thing I could come up with is that she thinks he is attractive, but I don't have any proof for that. Any other theories? - lma-c Jan 31, 2008
Ms. Hardcastle sees through Marlow's lies that he is a favorite of the female population. I think that when she first saw him, she saw him for who he really was: a shy, nervous man around women he likes. He reminds me of people who act like they are the masters of all they survey, but just act this way to cover inner shyness. Hardcastle saw right through him. She saw that at heart he was a (relatively) innocent fellow, and thus fell for him. Now, to find out what Marlow is thinking, she spies on him.
Now, before I finish, I know that you're going to ask me "what about when Marlow tried to seduce Hardcastle while she was in disguise?" Simple. He did this to help bolster his ego. If he can't get who he really wants, he will try to give himself a false impression of himself (i.e. that he is loved by all women) by going for someone of lower standing. He's trying to surpress the truth about his personality.- JHe-c Jan 31, 2008
I like the characters of Marlow and Miss Hardcastle; they make this play a comedy that is really funny. I think Marlow is interesting because before he had looked at Kate he seemed so disinterested and had no interest in even talking to her. Luckily for him, Kate took this as just being modest and shy, but then when she came to see him later and he got a good look at her, he was suddenly interested. I think Kate is a smart girl because now she is kind of playing with him and seeming uninterested like when she pulled away when he tried to kiss her. The relationship between these two is sure to be fun because Marlow thinks he has everything figured out when he has no idea what is going on; Kate even passed herself off as the maid to him.- mha-c Feb 1, 2008
Going back to lma's post, the entire situation with Kate and Mr. Hardcastle talking about a suitor reminds me somewhat of Hard Times when Louisa was put on the spot about the right man and what her father thought was best for her. In this case though, Kate has more control over her opinions, of course, and follows whatever beliefs she pleases, but we're brought back to the thought of the perfect suitor. Mr. Hardcastle even states, "Depend on it, child, i'll never control your choice."
We also talked in class about how Marlow presents himself to different portions of society. He acts differently around women of different standards. They said that he was much more himself when talking to lower class women, which made the story more interesting and humorous when Kate dressed herself as a barmaid. - bzw-c Feb 11, 2008
I also liked the characters of Miss Hardcastle and Marlow. I think that the way they fell in love seems realistic compared to the love stories we see in movie and things like that. They were both able to be themselves around each other and they seemed to fall in love with who the other person was, it just didn't seem fake to me or anything. I know at the beginning she says that she doesn't like shy men but I think that after they first met she could tell that he was shy because she was the one who he traveled to meet and I think that she wanted to see if he was always shy like that or if he was just shy under the pressure of meeting Miss Hardcastle. That is why I think that she dressed like a barmaid and kind of tricked him into being himself. She kind of got rid of the pressure that was making him shy. I think she knew that there was more to him and she wanted to find it out for herself. - kfr-c Feb 14, 2008
I think that when she mentioned service, she meant that it would be doing both her and Marlow a service. In this way, Marlow would experience more confidence which is always desirable, and that way Miss Hardcastle would also have an unshy guy, like she had mentioned that she wanted. Also, going along with what lma said about what Miss Hardcastle found attractive in a man, I got a strong feeling from page 4 that she was pretty shallow. She was excited, and since she found Marlow to be handsome, I think that could be the main reason she did not give up on him. - Sha-c Feb 15, 2008
Miss Hardcastle makes a comment in the very beginning in the play that gives us some information on what kinds of relationships she likes. ""It's a thousand to one I shan't like him; our meeting will be so formal, and so like a thing of business, that I shall find no room for friendship or esteem" (3). She wants a casual meeting--not like the one she initially had with Marlow. She wants to find friendship first. The only way she was able to do this (because of Marlow's initial nervous behavior) was by pretending she was a barmaid. I also liked Marlow least when he showed his egotistical side to Miss Hardcastle as a barmaid. But I think Miss Hardcastle liked it better because their meeting this way was definitely not formal. Miss Hardcastle did not think highly of Marlow in the beginning of he play when her father described him as "one of the most bashful and reserved young fellows in all the world" (4). She wanted the opposite. She was attracted to the confident Marlow. This adds to the irony of the play--Miss Hardcastle liked the Marlow that was full of himself. - KGa-c Feb 15, 2008
Yes, and isn't that the truth? People always want what they can't have, and on top of that, girls always want the guy with the attitude. For some reason or another, and I am not alluding to myself being including in this category, cockiness is very attractive to a lot of girls. It is almost the reputation, or the idea of the person that the girl wants, not necessariily the friendship he has to offer. Miss Hardcastle is definitely not an exeption to that behavior, but rather, she fits right into the mold. - cdu-c Feb 15, 2008
When reading this is was quite confused. If I was in disguise I would not be happy that the man i was pursuing was hitting on the person i was pretending to be. I just cannot understand why Hardcastle would find that attractive or allow that to happen. Maybe that is what makes her a funny character. She is not what most of us girls would be like nowadays. I guess it make sense for her character to find the big-headed Marlow most appealing becuase she does not want the refined, timid man. I also had a thought that maybe she liked him because of the common "falling for a bad boy" sort of thing. Her dad liked that Marlow was refined so when Hardcastle saw a different side of him that was one her father would not particularly care for, made her want him even more. Confusing, but we always have that urge to disobey our parents. Maybe that's what she was thinking too.- JJa-c Feb 15, 2008Jja-c
I can see where you are coming from, JJa. I would be confused if the man I was interested in did not like me for who I truly was, but rather, who I was not! It all relates to the comical aspect of the play, however. When Kate was speaking to Marlow, who was acting very odd and not even looking at her in the eye, I am sure she picked up on his behavior that he was intimidated or unsure how to act around women of class. She did seem interested in him, despite his awkwardness: "There's something so agreeable and spirited in your manner, such life and force" (31 in my edition). She then says to herself after the dialogue: "Yet the fellow, but for his unaccountable bashfulness, is pretty well too. He has god sense... If I could teach him a little confidence..." (32).
Marlow does indeed like the alehouse and various women. He is most comfortable, I'm sure, talking to someone when he feels the conversation and he himself are not being judged. Part of it, too, is that I think he likes the thrill of the chase. The upright Miss Hardcastle was too formal for him. Thus, the allure of the bar-maid made Kate all the more desirable in his eyes. - AWr-c Feb 16, 2008
Going back to "If I could teach him a little confidence...", this is a perfect representation that Goldsmith has made of women in general, but especially women with a heart for romance (which pretty much means all of them :) ). Women always seem to want to fix a guy, and they always think that they are capable of doing it. They like the idea of the guy he could be, rather than who he is exactly at that moment. I think Kate was more attracted at that point to how Marlow could be, not how he really was. She wanted to fix him, and she wanted to know that there was more to him than met the eye. So she dressed up as a maid, and observed him from a different perspective, and then his impudence probably attracted her even more, because as cdu said, every girl seems to like the bad boy. Goldsmith really loved stereotypes in this play! - mmi-c Feb 16, 2008
Then the next occurrence between Marlow and Miss Hardcastle made me question the nature of Miss Hardcastle. She wants to see if Marlow is really rude, so she dresses up as a maid. He doesn't treat her in the same manner as he treated her when she was Kate. He hits on her and he says he is a favorite of the ladies. To me, the latter Marlow is even less appealing than the intimidated one. But Kate thinks he's modest based on this second occurrence, and she stilll likes him. What does this say about Hardcastle? Is it just that love is a weakness of hers?
And by the way, can Kate hear Marlow when he is musing about her and says, "As for Miss Hardcastle, she's too grave and sentimental for me." (33)? Is musing just like an aside in that respect? -
I 've been thinking the same things about Miss Hardcastle and Marlow too; it doesn't make sense that she is intent on going for him when she has outwardly expressed already that she takes no interest in quiet, modest men. For example, back on page 4 when Mr .Hardcastle is telling Kate about her suitor, she's all for marrying this guy when she finds out that he is "very generous...young and brave...and very handsome," but the moment that Hardcastle says "bashful and reserved," Kate is immediately turned off and exclaims that "the word reserved has undone all the rest of his accomplishments". After Kate and Marlow's first interview, she talks to her stepdad about it: "If he be the sullen thing I take him, he shall never have [my consent to marry him]....And yet there may be many good qualities under that first appearance" (28). I don't really have a response to Kirsten except more questions: Why is she still interested in him? Why is she willing to give him a second chance when she said before that being modest trumps all of his good qualities? The only thing I could come up with is that she thinks he is attractive, but I don't have any proof for that. Any other theories?
-
Ms. Hardcastle sees through Marlow's lies that he is a favorite of the female population. I think that when she first saw him, she saw him for who he really was: a shy, nervous man around women he likes. He reminds me of people who act like they are the masters of all they survey, but just act this way to cover inner shyness. Hardcastle saw right through him. She saw that at heart he was a (relatively) innocent fellow, and thus fell for him. Now, to find out what Marlow is thinking, she spies on him.
Now, before I finish, I know that you're going to ask me "what about when Marlow tried to seduce Hardcastle while she was in disguise?" Simple. He did this to help bolster his ego. If he can't get who he really wants, he will try to give himself a false impression of himself (i.e. that he is loved by all women) by going for someone of lower standing. He's trying to surpress the truth about his personality.-
I like the characters of Marlow and Miss Hardcastle; they make this play a comedy that is really funny. I think Marlow is interesting because before he had looked at Kate he seemed so disinterested and had no interest in even talking to her. Luckily for him, Kate took this as just being modest and shy, but then when she came to see him later and he got a good look at her, he was suddenly interested. I think Kate is a smart girl because now she is kind of playing with him and seeming uninterested like when she pulled away when he tried to kiss her. The relationship between these two is sure to be fun because Marlow thinks he has everything figured out when he has no idea what is going on; Kate even passed herself off as the maid to him.-
Going back to lma's post, the entire situation with Kate and Mr. Hardcastle talking about a suitor reminds me somewhat of Hard Times when Louisa was put on the spot about the right man and what her father thought was best for her. In this case though, Kate has more control over her opinions, of course, and follows whatever beliefs she pleases, but we're brought back to the thought of the perfect suitor. Mr. Hardcastle even states, "Depend on it, child, i'll never control your choice."
We also talked in class about how Marlow presents himself to different portions of society. He acts differently around women of different standards. They said that he was much more himself when talking to lower class women, which made the story more interesting and humorous when Kate dressed herself as a barmaid. -
I also liked the characters of Miss Hardcastle and Marlow. I think that the way they fell in love seems realistic compared to the love stories we see in movie and things like that. They were both able to be themselves around each other and they seemed to fall in love with who the other person was, it just didn't seem fake to me or anything. I know at the beginning she says that she doesn't like shy men but I think that after they first met she could tell that he was shy because she was the one who he traveled to meet and I think that she wanted to see if he was always shy like that or if he was just shy under the pressure of meeting Miss Hardcastle. That is why I think that she dressed like a barmaid and kind of tricked him into being himself. She kind of got rid of the pressure that was making him shy. I think she knew that there was more to him and she wanted to find it out for herself. -
I think that when she mentioned service, she meant that it would be doing both her and Marlow a service. In this way, Marlow would experience more confidence which is always desirable, and that way Miss Hardcastle would also have an unshy guy, like she had mentioned that she wanted. Also, going along with what lma said about what Miss Hardcastle found attractive in a man, I got a strong feeling from page 4 that she was pretty shallow. She was excited, and since she found Marlow to be handsome, I think that could be the main reason she did not give up on him. -
Miss Hardcastle makes a comment in the very beginning in the play that gives us some information on what kinds of relationships she likes. ""It's a thousand to one I shan't like him; our meeting will be so formal, and so like a thing of business, that I shall find no room for friendship or esteem" (3). She wants a casual meeting--not like the one she initially had with Marlow. She wants to find friendship first. The only way she was able to do this (because of Marlow's initial nervous behavior) was by pretending she was a barmaid. I also liked Marlow least when he showed his egotistical side to Miss Hardcastle as a barmaid. But I think Miss Hardcastle liked it better because their meeting this way was definitely not formal. Miss Hardcastle did not think highly of Marlow in the beginning of he play when her father described him as "one of the most bashful and reserved young fellows in all the world" (4). She wanted the opposite. She was attracted to the confident Marlow. This adds to the irony of the play--Miss Hardcastle liked the Marlow that was full of himself.
-
Yes, and isn't that the truth? People always want what they can't have, and on top of that, girls always want the guy with the attitude. For some reason or another, and I am not alluding to myself being including in this category, cockiness is very attractive to a lot of girls. It is almost the reputation, or the idea of the person that the girl wants, not necessariily the friendship he has to offer. Miss Hardcastle is definitely not an exeption to that behavior, but rather, she fits right into the mold. -
When reading this is was quite confused. If I was in disguise I would not be happy that the man i was pursuing was hitting on the person i was pretending to be. I just cannot understand why Hardcastle would find that attractive or allow that to happen. Maybe that is what makes her a funny character. She is not what most of us girls would be like nowadays. I guess it make sense for her character to find the big-headed Marlow most appealing becuase she does not want the refined, timid man. I also had a thought that maybe she liked him because of the common "falling for a bad boy" sort of thing. Her dad liked that Marlow was refined so when Hardcastle saw a different side of him that was one her father would not particularly care for, made her want him even more. Confusing, but we always have that urge to disobey our parents. Maybe that's what she was thinking too.-
I can see where you are coming from, JJa. I would be confused if the man I was interested in did not like me for who I truly was, but rather, who I was not! It all relates to the comical aspect of the play, however. When Kate was speaking to Marlow, who was acting very odd and not even looking at her in the eye, I am sure she picked up on his behavior that he was intimidated or unsure how to act around women of class. She did seem interested in him, despite his awkwardness: "There's something so agreeable and spirited in your manner, such life and force" (31 in my edition). She then says to herself after the dialogue: "Yet the fellow, but for his unaccountable bashfulness, is pretty well too. He has god sense... If I could teach him a little confidence..." (32).
Marlow does indeed like the alehouse and various women. He is most comfortable, I'm sure, talking to someone when he feels the conversation and he himself are not being judged. Part of it, too, is that I think he likes the thrill of the chase. The upright Miss Hardcastle was too formal for him. Thus, the allure of the bar-maid made Kate all the more desirable in his eyes. -
Going back to "If I could teach him a little confidence...", this is a perfect representation that Goldsmith has made of women in general, but especially women with a heart for romance (which pretty much means all of them :) ). Women always seem to want to fix a guy, and they always think that they are capable of doing it. They like the idea of the guy he could be, rather than who he is exactly at that moment. I think Kate was more attracted at that point to how Marlow could be, not how he really was. She wanted to fix him, and she wanted to know that there was more to him than met the eye. So she dressed up as a maid, and observed him from a different perspective, and then his impudence probably attracted her even more, because as cdu said, every girl seems to like the bad boy. Goldsmith really loved stereotypes in this play! -